Dr. Beals: My opinion is that it is, and historically it's been shown clearly that it is. Pasteurization was only introduced in about 1900. And the history of human consumption of milk goes back well before recorded history. And as a matter of fact, in recorded history we know that the domestication of animals for the purpose of providing fluid milk for human consumption is present in almost all civilizations across the world. And recorded history and historians have well documented the fact that this consumption of milk was in fact very advantageous to civilization. It was advantageous for cultures that migrated because they were able to take domestic animals with them and have a continuous supply of fluid milk. And it's well recorded also in history that the ability to take domestic animals that provided fresh milk with armies as they moved across the country was a distinct advantage to them.

If a food is unsafe for consumption, it is very quickly eliminated from the diet of cultures. And in fact history shows that the consumption of milk from domestic animals has persisted throughout history, and on the basis of that, I don't believe that there's any argument but that the consumption of fresh milk is in fact safe, confers competitive advantage to those that drink it.

Dr. Beals: And the answer to that is that it does not need to be free of bacteria.

Dr. Beals: pasteurized milk where the beneficial bacteria have been killed.

Dr. Hull: Yes, I have. If Listeria, for example, is inoculated into raw milk, then they're killed actively by the raw milk's natural antimicrobial systems.

Question: Did you say killed?

Dr. Hull: Killed, yes.

Question: How much time does it take before the Listeria is killed?

Dr. Hull: If you inoculate 10,000 Listeria into raw milk, then in 48 hours they're all killed. That's at body temperature.

Question: Was that research published in a peer review journal?

Dr. Hull: Yes, it was.

Dr. Hull: Yes.

Question: Is all milk the same?

Dr. Hull: No, definitely not.

Question: What types of milk are there?

Dr. Hull: Well, there is raw milk. Raw market milk, I'll describe first, is a living food. And on the other hand we have pasteurized milk, which is a cooked -- I would describe it as a dead food. The raw market milk is living just as you and I are living because it contains a number of live components. The first one -- the first component is the competitive flora, which are the same microorganisms that live inside of our intestinal tract when we're healthy. It's the same flora that's used to make cheese and yogurt. That competitive flora competes out other pathogens. And we use that in commercial production. We have available to us now strains of lactic acid bacteria for use in specific ferments which will kill all of the pathogens which can exist in that particular product. So that's highly developed science. And not only is it science, but it's in commercial practice.

Question: What's the second component?

Dr. Hull: The second component is what nature provided in milk from the mammal, and that again we refer to as innate immunity. Innate immunity consists of several components, at least five or six components. There are probably more, but for today we'll just discuss a few of them. The first one is raw milk contains white cells, which if you like are the --

MS. RUUD: I'm sorry?

THE WITNESS: Contains white cells -- sorry if I didn't say it clearly -- which are the same cells that our immune system, our innate immune system, uses to combat infection. That same system is in milk and operating when it's drawn from a cow. We then have a subset of enzyme systems which are destined to kill pathogens which get into milk. And just to mention five of those systems, there's the complement system, which I'll just mention the temperature of inactivation as we go. The complement works with the white cells. It's inactivated at temperatures -- I'm going to use Celsius here -- 56 degrees Celsius. I apologize. We have been using Celsius now for about 35 years, and I have difficulty converting back to Fahrenheit. Although I did learn Fahrenheit at school. So we have complement, which is inactivated at 56 degrees, which is way below body temperature. So it's just a little above body temperature. Body temperature is 37 degrees, just for reference. The second element is the lactoperoxidase system, which is inactivated at 82 degrees centigrade. And the third one is lactoferrin, which is inactivated at about 95 degrees centigrade, which is nearly boiling. And the last one, last enzyme, survives boiling.

So if we look at pasteurized milk, the white cells are killed, the complement system is killed, but the other three remain active. So we've essentially killed off half of the innate immunity in milk.

Question: And innate immunity, that's the second component of raw milk that makes it a living food.

Dr. Hull: That makes it a living food. The third component is --

Question: Let me get a question on the record. What's the third component?

Dr. Hull: Thank you. The third component is a group of enzymes which digest the milk. Milk consists of fat, proteins, carbohydrates, and minerals. They're in a very complex state in milk, very concentrated form, and very difficult to digest without those enzymes. Those enzymes there are specifically to digest each of those components down into smaller molecules. Those smaller molecules are the things that we absorb when we drink milk. They're also the nutrients for the competitive flora, the number one living system in milk. So the natural enzymes in milk actually foster the protective flora in milk. And so the three work together. But in pasteurized milk, or cooked milk if you like, those systems are essentially dead.

So the two milks are very different. One is a living food. And I've brought an apple up with me. This is a living food. When we cook it, it's a dead food. And raw milk is like the apple. Cooked, the pasteurized milk is like the apple strudel. And food safety issues with these two products are very different.

Dr. Hull: Yes.

Question: If you set those two milks out and let them sit at room temperature, what happens to them after a certain period of time?

Dr. Hull: Thank you. If we set raw milk, which is the living food, aside at room temperature, it will curdle, and that product is perfectly safe to drink. If you set it aside at body temperature, in other words, if you carry it around in your pocket or sit it next to the stove at body temperature, it will also curdle or sour, and that product is perfectly safe to drink. It will not make you sick. In contrast, if you set aside pasteurized milk at room temperature or body temperature, it will spoil and putrefy, and if you do drink it, it will make you sick. In fact it may make you very sick. So the two products have a quite different behavior if just left at room temperature or body temperature. Now, the same thing happens when we drink those products. One turns to a sour yogurt-type product; the other one putrefies. And I think the two products are quite different in that respect.

Dr. Hull: Yes, it does.

Question: And because of that immunity system, can raw milk be subjected to a less, quote, clean environment?

Dr. Hull: Yes, definitely. And that's part of the reason I brought this apple here. I can leave this apple sitting around for I don't know how many weeks in California, but certainly at home an apple or orange can sit on the kitchen table or outside for many days and still be fine to eat. Not a health hazard, not a food safety issue. But if we cook that product, then we cannot do that. We have to protect it from contamination, from infection, from the environment because it has no longer living immunity in the apple.